Push Them Down

Claire: [00:00:00] If you raise a bad boy, then you are part of the problem of the world.

You know, your kid being naughty at school is the first step on the path to becoming, you know, Donald Trump.

INTRO

Quinn:  Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

Claire: We'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like screen time and vaccines.

Quinn: Banned books, and maybe just stop leaving your books on the car floor. Dammit.

Claire: Climate change and five minute shower timers. No one uses. And also turning off the lights

Quinn: And apparently the end of sex ed and maybe sex and is sex woke? I don't know. It's not an advice show.

Claire: It's a you're not alone and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kind of show. I'm Claire Zalgey from Evil Witches.

Quinn: And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important.

Claire: You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, not right now dot show

Quinn: And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet and then drop us a nice little five star review.

Claire: And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions at not right now show dot show.

Quinn: So here's the deal. It's always been gnarly to be a parent, I imagine. Even with being a white person with any amount of income, much less a dual income, or any amount of accumulated wealth through real estate or whatever it might be, in the United States of all places it's still difficult, but the point is, parenting right now, there are some things that are pretty universal about it. I think there are things that probably have stood the test of time that now our parents are looking at us going like, fucking told you, you know, just because the technology is different [00:01:00] doesn't mean anything else.

But you know, as much as our parents hid under their desks for a nuclear crisis that didn't happen we've got our own set of fucking issues, some of which we can do something about, and some of which we can't do as much about, and how do you operate as a human being also as a partner, if you have a partner, also as a parent during climate change and fascism and artificial intelligence.

So if you haven't listened to anything else my name is Quinn Emmett. I'm the founder of Important, Not Important. We call it science for people who give a shit. I am very happy to introduce my amazing co-host, co-conspirator, Claire Zulkey, who's the founder of the wildly popular Evil Witches blog.

Claire, tell us about yourself.

Claire: Hey, Quinn. Nice to talk with you. I am a freelance writer. I am based in Evanston, Illinois, which is where I grew up. I did not intend to come home to where I grew up, but I did end up doing [00:02:00] that. I'm married to a creative like myself. He is a filmmaker, producer and director.

We have two boys who are ages nine and 12. And I began parenting writing the second I got pregnant, I would say, probably, because writing is how I make sense of things. Parenting is not how I make sense of things. I remember really clearly when my son was born in the early postpartum days, for instance, how my husband and I were fighting so much because we were so tired and so stressed out and my husband said something along the lines of this baby is trying to break us up and we have to stand against him, to fight against him to not let it happen. And I wrote an essay I think for The Hairpin maybe about or The Awl about that prospect, about just how a baby will tear you apart, you know, and just writing that made me feel so much better.

And then I heard back from other parents that that resonated with them. And so, in my career, I've written for Parents Magazine and Real Simple and New York [00:03:00] Times. And then around 2019, 2018, Oh, actually in 2016, I started a Facebook group for moms that I just considered cool moms who would get it.

If I could talk shit about my family and my kids and people who I could say, I hate these kids, but they knew that I loved them, you know, and, but they were just the kind of people you could be irreverent with, but also moreover, they were a group of people who were very intelligent, talented, funny. Who did not intend to bury that part of them as they raise these children, even if it was incredibly difficult to maintain that side of them.

And I wanted to personally just have a kind of discussion around parenting that acknowledged that side of you. Cause I remember like reading in Parents Magazine, they would never talk about your own desires, for instance, or, you know, they might reference postpartum or frustration, but they wouldn't talk about rage that would make you scream and wonder if there was something wrong with you.

And, you know, the [00:04:00] acknowledgement of how you might actually understand why someone might shake their baby.

Quinn: Never do it, but yeah.

Claire: But you get it. And so anyway we would talk about our kids and our spouses and the schools and our work and our fashion and sex lives and joke and pop culture and people would say this should be a larger conversation and I ended up on Substack and that's where I send out these different conversations as we go along and we have conversations and never feel compelled to say, I'm just kidding or I don't really mean it or of course I love my kids because let's, we all know that.

We know, you know, we wouldn't even be talking about this probably. We wouldn't be worrying about it so much if we didn't care. So, that's kind of what I explore with Evil Witches. [00:05:00]

Quinn: It’s amazing, it’s truly one of the, my fucking job requires me to subscribe to so many goddamn newsletters and take in so much shit, and it's one of the few that I open so gleefully everytime, because I’m like, let’s see where Claire had her camera in my fucking house this week. Because it really, it’s the whole thing and I really appreciate and God do you find so valuable once you're not quite out of being in it, I mean, you're always in it, but it just becomes, I guess, such a big part of who you are, is people you don't have to explain yourself to.

I was out to dinner last night, rarely with five other dads, locally. Same thing. I'm in Williamsburg, Virginia, where I'm above a fucking candy shop in Colonial Williamsburg. I was born and raised here and left for eons and just came back a couple of years ago. Same thing. Didn't totally see that coming, but thought maybe.

And I've got of the five guys at dinner, myself was one, and two of my childhood best friends who have also moved back, were two others. And then there are two other guys who are just fantastic. And everybody's got kids from six to 13, basically. And first of all, the [00:06:00] disappointment in that poor waiter when everybody just ordered tap water for dinner.

And he was just like, God damn it. But it's like, there's, we have nothing to give. But I came back and I remember telling my wife, she was like, how was it? I was like, it's just, it was like an hour and a half, and it was so great, because it's just a group of people, you don't, like you said, don't have to be like, I'm kidding, of course, no, they're actually great kids, don't have to do any of that, of course, sure they are, and I love all their kids too, and they also drive me crazy because usually they're involved with my kids in some hellish scheme and it really does make a difference and like you said, it's really healthy. You have to try to find that if you can, even if you don't actually see people in real life, which we do so, so rarely. You have to have whatever your version of it is. It really makes a difference. So, yeah. It's a funny thing. So, you know, I've got this other work and [00:07:00] I get asked what are the qualifications behind it, and the answer is none, like barely graduated from Colgate University because of swimming, and sports, and girls, and I’m a dipshit.

But I've worked at the Financial Times and for different media companies and done investing in philanthropic stuff and on political campaigns and all that kind of stuff.

And, you know, an oceanography expert on the other side telling me what a moron I am because again, you know, we are enormously privileged, we both work, my wife is so hardworking and the greatest person that's ever lived and wildly successful and we have a great support system. But holy shit man, I had three under three for a little bit and we've done every version of it so I feel like I can do this all day, and I think it's healthy, and I think there's a lot of people out there that want and need to just know that there's other people going through it as well. Especially with such big shit going down.

Does that ring a bell at all?

Claire: Yeah, there's something magically cathartic about there's something that will live in your head and like for me laying on the floor, that's when you know I'm most depressed or most [00:08:00] tired as I, there's nowhere else, I can't, I need to be on the ground and there would be things that would bring me down literally and I would think maybe I shouldn't have had kids.

You know, all these things and then I talk about it with another friend, especially another mom who has two boys, there's something about it, about living that boy life. And you'll say something that in your head was making you cry and then the second you say that loud it's hilarious.

My friend telling me how she called her son a little bitch and pushed him out the door. And I, you know, she is a great mom and this is a great kid and I love this family. And I was like, I bet he was being a little bitch and I support you, you know? And I'm sure she felt horrible about it at the time, but we just laugh our butts off.

And you just, you absolutely need to know that you're not the only one and that this other stuff goes on and there's something about it that is really joyful just to connect with other people about it because it can really, yeah, when your kid is not being great at school and you can talk about it with another mom who's [00:09:00] been or another parent who's been there.

So you're not carrying around this guilt of my kid made the teacher's life hard. And then that made someone else, some other kids day at school worse. And maybe this kid is now destined to like, not be a great person because we didn't do, you know, and yeah, but when you can talk to another mom whose kid got the same email with a subject line reading “Bathroom Incident”, which is something that happened with me and my friend then you can laugh about it.

And you remember that this is normal and you need to be reminded of that, of all the work you do to try to raise a good kid and the kid turns around in your face and throws it right back in your face and does like the opposite, but even harder, you know, and to remember that's normal and not a sign that you are fucking up.

And you know, with boys in particular, I mean, this is a huge generalization, but I feel like, if you raise a bad boy, then like you are part of the problem of the world.

So, you know, your kid being naughty at school is, you know, the first step on the path to becoming, you know, Donald Trump. [00:10:00] So, yeah, it is a very stressful thing. And it really got to me. I don't know if you were able, if you were able to just roll with it, but I had a hard time not taking it personally.

Quinn: You know, half of my job is helping people understand for example, how the insurance markets are completely crumbling. I don't know if you've paid attention to that.

If you haven't, you can bury your head on that one. But it's a lot of helping people understand what are you exposed to, right? You're investments, home insurance, whatever it might be. And having children is just exponential math, as I was trying to explain to a friend with very small children. Pre walking, because, you know, walking is when it gets, everyone's like, yay, and it's no, so much worse.

Claire: Push them down.

Quinn: Yep, push them, keep shoving them down. Having, I had, we had three under three, and now, you know, it's three under, three between nine and twelve. At any given moment, I can be called about anything. With one, shit happens, and you probably love that child more than, for example, I love all [00:11:00] three. But, yeah, anything at any given moment. So when I get the, let me read this text to you,

“Good afternoon, I'm sending your son home with a behavior reflection form for something that happened during lunch. It would be great if you could talk with him about it and reinforce that his job in the cafeteria is to eat. Happy Wednesday.” And by the way, that's the teacher who's amazing, and all three of my children have had this poor woman. She's on the last one. But, you know.

Claire: Yeah because here's the two things, like on the one hand, as a parent, you want to support the teacher because their job is that they don't get paid enough. You know, they don't get enough respect.

You know, your kid is probably just one grain of sand in the, you know, ocean of children that they're handling.

On the other hand, now, first of all, you don't know what the hell they did. Were they shouting to their friends or did they take a dump in the middle of the cafeteria? Did they hurt someone or were they just being a pain in the butt? And now you can think about that for the rest of [00:12:00] the day until your kid comes home and that kid is probably tired and done and wants to be done.

But now you have to talk as if you talking is going to be the thing that will make sure, make them never do that again.

Quinn: And I have discovered more and more recently and I assume 95 percent of this is my fault, that the more I talk, the worse it gets. And then I'd say things like, you know you have to listen to me when I'm talking to you, as they're walking away from us talking about them, listening to me talk about them.

So.

Claire: And they don't care that you're like, secretly, this is really about me because it makes me feel like I look bad when you cause a problem at the school and they don't, that doesn't make them want to behave. I don't know, I've just been there. We were just talking about my son's first preschool teacher who would send these kind of notes home and have no idea on what we could do so we were like doing all kinds of charts and taking away things and he was three like, you know in retrospect, he was like a walking baby and anyway, I just have a lot of uh, I was a really good [00:13:00] girl in school.

I never got these. I think the worst thing I ever did was like read a book under the desk during math class. And so it was a real, you know, it was very humbling to go through this. And I hate being humbled, but I, it gives me a lot of compassion and it just stinks. Because you want to help the teacher, but also sometimes they're not always great at communicating.

I mean, they're on the fly. They don't, they're not going to sit you down for an annual review and make goals and things like that. So.

Quinn: And by the way, she sent that to me, at 12:30 during their day. As she's sending that, she's got 22 other fuckin nine year olds to deal with? As she's sending that, God knows what else is happening there. And it's good kids, and it's a good class, but it's still, anything can happen at any moment.

But also I did not only get in trouble for reading books under the desk, or a single book, as you put it, which seems insane to me. But, no, I mean, I still give my mom who's the greatest person alive blanket apologies for things, and she's like for what?

And I'm like, Fuckin [00:14:00] everything. Like what, we were, I was awful. Of course my sister was perfect, two other brothers are morons too, but not quite as big as me.

Claire: Remind me of where you were in the birth order?

Quinn: I'm the second of four. So, older brother, four and a half years, my mom had a couple miscarriages, he calls them the golden years, because he was without me.

I showed up, was the miracle baby. Not that, eventually. And then a younger brother who's two years younger and then a younger sister who's six years younger than I am. And she was the great one. They got to her and they were like, the rest of you guys get out of here.

We don't need you anymore.

Claire: That's funny. I just read this memoir by Churchill's youngest daughter, Winston Churchill's youngest daughter.

Quinn: My wife read all of those! Which one?

Claire:. Oh, really?

I don't know why I read that, but it was interesting, you know, but it yeah, she was like the remainder and she came after a like a child who died and of course she was the baby and they all loved having the baby, but there was a book called I forget what it's called, but it's about you're second born and just like what a maniac they are and like this book I think was self published and has a certain, [00:15:00] these typos in it and they make me laugh because I'm like, I don't know if these were actually accidents or if this was like a stylized choice to portray the mind of a parent raising a second born son, but either way, it really, like it talks about how the second born will bully the first born, you know, things like yeah.

And it just makes you feel better that you're like, this is a feature, not a bug.

Quinn: There's a moment in, and this is gonna get nerdy real quick, in the first Lord of the Rings movie, where they go into the Mines of Moria underground, and they discover oh, this isn't the kingdom it once was. Bad things happened. The dwarves who were there left a diary, and, you know, as is typical at the end of the diary, it's like, they're coming about orcs and then it trails off and that's the last entry. My mom has this baby book I discovered recently. From my birth, which they worked so hard on for so long to make happen. And first couple entries like, oh, how lucky are we? And then, at 18 months, I'm not kidding, and I'm gonna find it, I have a picture of it somewhere, I took a picture of the entry, it says, Quinn has [00:16:00] turned into an absolute terror.

And the T is capitalized, and it's the last fucking entry. It's the last fucking entry. And I was just like, oh shit! I didn't know it started that early!

Claire: God, wow. She must have been mad to get out the baby book and cause that is not just laying around.

Quinn: No. That takes, it's like people who put bumper stickers on their cars. Like it takes work to go out there to put it straight for, I mean, you've got to buy it. You get all the shit.

Yeah, she did. So that's why, you know, I get this shit from the teacher who's amazing. And I'm like, one, I'm sorry.

Number one, my kid's a dipshit. He's wonderful, but he's a dipshit. Like I was. And he probably got it from there, one. If it was a joke, was it funny? And two, come on, man, don't, not in class.

Claire: I haven't been able to write this up and maybe it's because it's hard because our kids go to Catholic school, which is its own thing. But I always say how school is like no other transaction you make as a human because you put all this into it. And what you get out of it [00:17:00] is not at all related to what you put into it.

And you don't even you're not even a part of it, you know?

Quinn: Can you expand on that a little bit?

Claire: Well, you know, before you have kids, you're used to putting money in to buy something and you get the goods that you want, or perhaps you're used to putting an effort to something and then you feel either the pride in your finished product or, you know, perhaps the experience that you gained from it.

With the school, you feel, I mean, at least based on social media, you see these first day of school pictures with the kids with their hair brushed and maybe the little chalkboard and you're so, you know, excited about ABCs and the teacher. And then before you know it, you're getting asked to volunteer for something that nobody wants to do and nobody appreciates but you have to do it because somebody has to step up and then you're putting in extra money for the school supplies, even though perhaps you already paid tuition, and you are getting emails from the teacher about how your kid is a totally normal dipshit.

And maybe you've met some best friends at the school who are other parents, maybe you've met some other people who are like [00:18:00] completely antithetical to everything you stand for, but you have to work with them. And then meanwhile, the discourse is all about how teachers are overpaid, you know, or we are indoctrinating children, you know, and so there's no just here's the money.

Here's the kid, educate them, send them out. There's just this morass of things that you have to handle. I mean, I'm just doing it right now. I'm raising bonuses for the teachers because they're criminally underpaid, but I'm also getting asked to do communications for another fundraiser. And I don't want to do any of this stuff, but also, I don't know, someone has got to do it.

And I'm better at it than probably some other people. So I might as well do it, I guess. I don't know. I just think people who don't have kids don't really understand how whatever you put into it is not remotely related to what you'll get out of it.

Quinn: Yeah, I think that's totally fair. We had a swim meet this weekend. I think I sent you the email about we were there from Friday morning until Sunday night because one of them qualified for finals by, you know, two one hundredths of a fucking second, which again, that's a whole life I lived. [00:19:00] I try to be supportive, but I'm nowhere near interested in being a swim parent.

That's a whole different thing or soccer or whatever. But we talked about, they made some progress, and I said, what you, not always, mass generalization, what you put in is what you get out, it wasn't about you showing up this weekend, it was all the work you've done every day, ever since, all that kind of shit, getting good sleep and stuff like that, but you're right, there are certain transactions as a parent where you put something in, and it's a fucking Pandora's box of stuff that you get out, and like you said you do have to do it though, because one, like it's part of I guess participating in the whole thing, but two, logistically and financially, if you don't do it, they won't have supplies.

And there won't be a walkathon, which is also to raise money. There won't be like all this other shit, because like you said, the problem is when you identify yourself as fuck, I'm kind of good at this, or at least you're better than everyone else who wouldn't do a [00:20:00] good job, right?

You're like, no, this is the fucking, this is the way you send the email and please just use this service to sign everybody up.

Claire: Yeah, the sheer luck that goes into whether a school community has parents who are magically good at like organizational change, you know, for instance, and communication, maybe tech. Fundraising. Our prior school, the community was very reluctant to tap parents for money and time because they didn't want to bug them. But the output of that is the teachers are underpaid. The activities are weak, you know, everything is janky. And you're like, you know, it's just a matter of like not every school has someone who's used to leading meetings for the school board, for instance, or yeah, like just running things like continuity, all these like sort of business things that consultants get paid millions of dollars to do that, you know, you're just lucky if you get some parents who are able to do this and have the free time and have the expertise, but it's completely random and it's totally based off privilege, which is you know, so just add like a nice [00:21:00] fondant of guilt over all that, you know? Like how, yeah. How lucky am I?

Quinn: A hundred percent. And yeah, you're right. It is pure luck. When we were in Los Angeles up until a couple years ago, my kids went to a, one of the very few good public schools in L.A. There were a thousand kids, K to 5, and they did, they worked so hard to make it feel like half that size.

And you can only do so much, but I mean, if that school, the number of fundraisers they had, and it was very clear, you're like, you're not paying tuition because it's public school, but you've got a lot to do because first of all, they didn't have a nurse. So stop there. And you paid for every one of the, what, I don't remember what they called it, centers or whatever the word they used for it was art, science, et cetera, et cetera, all came directly out of parent funding.

Cause they were like, look, we're doing our best, but if we don't raise 300 grand a year, like that's the baseline to operate like this.

And they did a great job and you just go oh my [00:22:00] god. And meanwhile, I think of the thousand kids at the school I think at any given moment like 10 to 20 were fully homeless or unhoused.

However you want to phrase it. And so you're just going okay. I'm gonna participate. I will be the security guard. I will send the emails at midnight after I do all the bottles or whatever because someone has to do it and there's these, you know, the parents of the fifth graders who get like a long applause when they leave because they have literally held the school up with their bare hands for six fucking years when they leave and you go I have to do that.

Claire: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. And you have to get along with people who really don't believe the same things you believe, you know, or who think that you must have more time or are less important than they are like all these things. And yeah, it is not, I don't know. I was, yesterday I helped a friend who had a sick baby.

And on the one hand, I was like, man, I don't miss at all having an infant who was sick, you [00:23:00] know, like the desperation and the never ending cycle and how long those days are. But also I was like, just thinking about, you know, my oldest is 12 and I was like, you have no idea, like all the things that are going to come your way, you know, and just all the myriad situations like volunteer hours and science projects and internet and you know, whatever.

I mean, we know all this.

Quinn: No, it's so hard to, you wrote about at one point, I don't remember what post it was, but it is, but I think it was this year. I don't fucking know anymore about anything. About the advice you try to pass on at a baby shower, basically. It always reminds me of the Billy Madison moment, where he shakes the kindergartner and is like, stay here for as long as you fucking can. And, it's the same thing. One of our children was out, elected for their morning chore to be picking up dog poop. You're gonna have a dog and you want to play in the yard. You, it's not that much. It's not that complicated. Just go out every morning and then it won't pile up, like your [00:24:00] room. And at one point, they were out there and they had dragged my wife into it, of course, and they were very frustrated and did the, I mean, it's so cliche, stomped the foot and said, adults don't have to do any chores. And you're just like, fuck.

Claire: Can I ask you a brief question? Tell me like a tiny victory from lately that made you think we're on the right track or these kids are not going to be so bad or maybe we made a good choice here.

Quinn: With my kids? It's such a fucking reflex to be like, every day. I told them, I have this little thing. The other day, I copied it from someone years and years ago, my kids, how was your day? I go, every day is the best day of my life with you guys. And the other day my nine year old goes, Every day?

I was like, maybe not every fucking day. I mean, we can both read the room here not every fucking day. Like, why? What did you do today? No, I mean, I don't know. You know, little things. Big one got home from the swim meet the other night and his [00:25:00] sister just left him a little note said, Hey, I'm really proud of you. That's great. And I was like that's fucking it, man. Because we're so macabre with them. We're like, we're gonna die so much sooner than you think.

You are, all you have is each other. And they're like, fuck okay. Can I go ride my bike, please? So little shit like that, I'm like, great. Nailed it. That's it for the day. What about you?

Claire: My 12 year old, you know, as you know, there was like five minutes between Thanksgiving and Christmas season this year and my older one was bitching about wondering where the advent calendar was. And I had just hosted 22 people for Thanksgiving and I said you know what? I think that you should be in charge of it this year because we have a refillable one and he did and he still has Halloween candy and he's putting in there And he's also realizing that it's really hard to keep up with.

And I was just like good. I'm glad he's enjoying it. He's doing it for his little brother. And I'm glad that he's realizing how much work goes into making the holidays magical, but he is doing it. And that just made me [00:26:00] happy that he's like a part of it now and making it happen.

Quinn: Awesome, and good for you for, I guess, dropping the facade in some ways. Cause at some point you just gotta be like, If it's going to continue to be up to me, I'm going to let you know that this specific thing is not going to happen anytime soon. And that's just it. Because I've got 70, because I just finished Thanksgiving. You know, we haven't even finished getting through all of the fucking dishes from three days ago. And you're like, where's the Christmas tree?

Claire: Yeah.

Quinn: You know, it's a lot. But that's great. That's awesome. And it does help for them to almost immediately go oh, this is very annoying. This is, I get something out of it cause my sibling enjoys it.

And that's great. But whoa, remind me to never bring this up again.

Claire: Yeah, 100%. I mean, and that's what the little things are, like the big moments like the honor roll or graduation or the championship or the summit like those are fun, but that is the culminate and a lot of luck, you know, but that doesn't add up to this or like my younger kid he volunteered to pick up the poop [00:27:00] in the backyard yesterday because he wanted to play football back there.

And, sometimes this kid is so lazy and entitled. You know, can you pour my milk? Can you whatever? And to, it was just very pleasing that for once in his life, he was like, I'm going to take it upon myself to do this unpleasant task because I need it to happen for me to enjoy myself. And I was like, yes, thank you.

All right, good. Finally.

Quinn: That’s incredible. That's a win. Truly. Like those should count for much more than all the fuck ups or like you said, you know, you've mentioned before talking about, you know, what if my kid isn't quite working out the way I hoped?

Claire: Yeah.

Quinn: I mean, so look. the goal here, obviously this is the first one, and it could end in a fireball, but it's to very loosely structure a conversation around one of these fucking things from, you know, chores to book bans and consumerism and waste and climate and sex ed or lack of, whatever it is.

And I [00:28:00] hope that the first, however long this was, is indicative of it'll veer off topic, but I think a lot of that is because parenting is 7, 000 unfinished conversations, and a lot of your conversing with other parents is like, oh, and this other fucking thing.

But it all actually goes together, which is, it's hard. And again, even if you've got all the support in the world. So, if we do more of these, if they work, I would love to incorporate some Q&A from people. People tend to have a lot of that. Yeah, that's it. I, do want to clarify, and I know we both care about this a lot.

Again, if this, kind of like Evil Witches, like it’s for moms, and you mentioned it's, you know, it's for all parents, it's one of my favorite things. But you do a really great job, if you don't mind me reading this, describing from your About page who this is for. Again, if you don't fit into this, great, but you wrote, We are the moms, in this case parents, who will not be taken aback if you say something negative or irreverent about your [00:29:00] family. We will most likely try to make you feel better with our own story or joke, because we've all had the blowouts on the airplanes whatever it is, and we can all do this and still say something adoring about your child on social media because we too look forward, God damn it, Claire, I reread this last night and I was like, oh my god, we too look forward all night to bedtime and then paradoxically spend the evening looking at old baby photos.

I mean, It's so fucked up. But importantly folks should know whoever's out there. Listener. This is not a podcast for anti-vaxxers or people who think teachers are overpaid, clearly already, people who think, like I said, social emotional intelligence is feel good nonsense. It matters. And because it's difficult to, I wrote a whole blog post that's not uplifting called The Disconnect about why the kids are so angry.

But I want to give our standard caveat or I guess what we support and promote, which is I wrote it a couple years ago. I said, we're biased here, but not towards any [00:30:00] particular party, person or company. We often and specifically call up with good actors and bad actors who are measurably working towards or preventing progress at every level of power and understanding who, what money and what policies are driving progress or standing in the way are key to bending the arc further and faster.

And I guess when that's applicable to parenting, that can be everything from free school lunches to maternal health to, you know, paid leave, I mean, you fucking name it. And again, we've both got versions of support systems that are helpful from real family to found family to amazing spouses.

But that's the goal here. Does that sum it up, Claire?

Claire: Yes. And I, yes, and I, if I may say, and I think this is related. I think a big part of it as well is the internet and social media. Are we the same age? I was born in 79. What year were you born?

Quinn: Eighty two.

Claire: Okay. Well, you're young, but I was just having a chat with Emily Gould, former editor of Gawker. And I, cause I've been toying around with this essay that I've been working on about how we [00:31:00] enjoyed as parents analog childhoods. And then we weren't, we were a little bit older when we got online and the internet was a much smaller place and a freer place and you could be anonymous.

There are no videos at the time. No social media, you could experiment, play, make mistakes, not have it be served up to haunt you forever. And our kids are online at a much earlier age, there's much less privacy, there are so many more ways to fuck up and it's terrifying and you can't avoid it at the same time.

Emily was comparing it to food where you need food to live and it is pretty impossible to live a life completely offline at any age this time, and I mean, at least my 12 year old has to be on Google Classrooms to do his homework. So what are we going to do with this tool that can be a tool or it can be a cudgel and it can ruin people's lives or it can uplift you and how are we navigating that with our kids?

And what are we going to teach them? We don't even know what the future looks like, but we got to guide them [00:32:00] and ourselves through it and that's terrifying. And I think it's good to talk to other parents about that. We don't know what's coming and it's really scary. But you know, like with COVID, we got through that and we'll get through this and see what happens.

Quinn: Let me ask you something, again the cliche is old people like me going, in my day! So there's obviously fundamental, philosophical, universal truths there, but do you think our having experienced sort of the last analog childhood, do you think that's helpful in parenting or do you think we like hold that against society or use it as a crutch or any of those things?

I ask because I literally today bought a home phone, because I told my kids they're not getting phones. So I struggle.

Claire: Yeah, I mean, absolutely, if anything for instance, I realize that I'm closer with parents who've made the same choices that we have because I think, you know, a hard part of parenting and being a kid is peer pressure and you know, [00:33:00] it's easy to say to yourself, we're not going to do this, but then when you live in a world where everyone else does that, you know, you start to second guess yourself and you have to stand up for yourself.

And I will say, well Seth Meyer had a joke, I think it was him in his latest stand up special, where he talked about how his kids don't have phones yet, and he said, I'm not saying our kids are better than yours for it, if you did give your kid a phone, I'm just saying we're better parents than you are, which is, you know, obviously a gag. You know, it's so many of these things. You have to be sympathetic and empathetic. If your kid is riding the subway to school and you don't see them all day or if your kid's parents are divorced and they need to talk to them, like there's so many good reasons for them to have a cell phone.

But on the other hand, it does make me happy. I'm not a brain doctor or a genius, but I think it is, I do think in my heart of hearts that it is better for my kid that he goes out with his friends and plays football or he makes a game up, you know, or he drew a little piece, he made his own Pokemon [00:34:00] and hid them around the house for his brother to find that he can make his own fun.

And I, in my heart, I'm like, I think that it's good for his brain and I do feel good about that. But on the flip side, I do feel a sense of sadness for when he does get his first phone and it's going to be like him, you know, it's like when you see in a movie where someone smokes their first joint, and it's like everything, you know, they fall through the looking glass and I feel this sense of sadness for his impending loss of innocence, and he is already behind a lot of his colleagues, as it were, in terms of social media and knowledge and savviness, but I think being sophisticated is incredibly overrated as a child, so, I feel good about it, but you know, a lot of things have to go right. It has to be, it's not easy also as a parent. You have to make a lot of trade-offs. You have to, there's a lot more messes. There's a lot more talking to your kid. You may have to work, you know, you might not have time to entertain them while they're offline. So I am glad we made that decision, but it's not easy. But [00:35:00] yeah, I think it's special, you know, it's a special time of your life because being bored is luxury when you're at a certain age and knowing what to do with your time is a skill.

Quinn: No it's very easy in my day job and a lot of what's going on in the world to really see more than as applicable or fair as black and white.

Or to really demonize something, or to cheer something on. On the one hand, there's the don't meet your heroes side of things, pragmatic about it. It's like, you can be idealist, but I, you know, AOC had a really great quote recently, which was essentially, paraphrasing, it's important to be right, but we also have to be effective. And that's actually pretty applicable to parenting, and I find dealing with a lot of this shit as well, which is, I loved Instant Messenger. The number of times I changed my information to match, I don't know, whatever band X girl happened to like at that time to reinvent [00:36:00] myself for it or whatever. And I loved all the offline parts of technology that were not, one, connected, much less programmed to capture us from Oregon Trail to Mac Paint.

So I do get it. It is different, however, because again, it is specifically programmed to capture you as much as possible, and that is like the most innocent version of it, obviously, it goes much deeper and darker or it can, at least, but you're so fucking tired as a parent, even with all this support, that it's really easy to fallback on the yeah, we're just not fucking doing that bud.

Or as I often say like our family is going to do it differently and they're like well can I choose another one? Like I fucking get it, you know, and that's unfair but it's also hard because you're like how am I dealing with a different fucking chat thing or a different app or whatever it might be every single day that you're being left out of. My kids actually handle it really well, or at least outwardly they do, and maybe that's [00:37:00] because I've just been such a caveman about it for so long.

But they’re going to get to that point where they feel left out. I’ve actually thought about recently, a bunch of their friends have phones, because similarly, we're in a pretty military heavy area. Parents are gone a lot, both day to day and longer term. Or they're both working and not from home. And so a lot of kids have phones. Less social media, so far. But I've thought to myself, what if I offered their friends money to not be on social media?

Claire: Woah.

Quinn: Like it is that too far? Like how? I don't know. It’s, you know, trying to stave it off.

Claire: It is, I mean, something that people don't talk about a lot is, yeah, the peer pressure. Well, first, I mean, again, there's so many things that this pops up for me in terms of I wanted to write about, a friend and I, who's also her daughter, is similarly offline. It's weird how you find each other, but she, we've sort of had to cheer each other on about how it's overrated to have a cool kid.

First of all, there's, you'll never [00:38:00] catch up to that. There's, your kid will never be, and cool means, you know, cool for them, not for you, you may think your kid is cool because he put some good stickers on his skateboard, you know, but for him, it's like how it says YouTube, you know, how many likes and subscribers does he have?

And yeah the coolest kid will never be the coolest. And that's never catching up. And you'll, you know, then you look like Amy Poehler, but it matters to you that your kid is cool. But I think at a certain point, I think they get smart enough to realize what they are missing out in terms of the bad stuff as well.

I will say we're not like a completely analog family. Like our son has to be on Google classroom for school. And we gave him an iMessage account to talk to his friends. And he and I had a cute moment last week where he's like, mom, you gotta upgrade to what is the latest version of Mac that we just downloaded?

I don't even know. But he was like, you can respond with anything. And there's all these text things, you know, text effects. And we just messed around with it together, just sending, just, you know, in [00:39:00] adjoining rooms, sending each other text messages with goofy, you know, fonts and things like that.

And you know, is that nice? Is that scary? I don't know, but I was engaging with my seventh grader and you know, that's kind of special in its own way. But I was also going to say, you know, you raise your kid and you are taking care of them, just the just you the two of you and then they start school and no one prepares you for their friend who has four older sisters and they know everything already, you know, or my son whose friend, I think in fourth grade or fifth grade was sending like rape jokes and you know I hope you kill yourself to other kids and he was on his phone at one in the morning because his mom left his Apple Watch in there and you know, my kid is feeling left out of that and you're like, thank god he's left out of that.

But you know, no one prepares you for these other influences. So, yeah, just another example of the things you're not prepared for and there's no real way. I mean, I think my parents were mean parents. We [00:40:00] didn't have cable until I went to college. And we, I was not allowed to have a phone in my room or TV in my room.

There were downsides to that. I certainly got to college and I had to withdraw some classes because I spent so much time then smoking weed and watching Comedy Central because no one was overseeing me, but I got my feet under myself, you know, and I think I kind of like maintaining the tradition of being a mean parent and holding a few things back.

They also have literally everything else in the world like n minus one.

Quinn: Well, that's the thing. They're going to be fine. Is there some social stuff and more influences in a given hour if the fire hose is on then either of us ever encountered growing up even as though we were surrounded by MTV and all this shit. But, you know, we're not entirely analog either.

So we've got three beat up old iPads. They can text each other and us. And on the one hand I’m like, we could probably do a little better on that. We try not to just [00:41:00] demonize screen time. Like you said about the school computer thing, but what do you, is it really science homework, bud? Is that what we're doing right now? On the iPads, I know I've got them locked down to a certain degree. And then they're like, well, I discovered iMovie and I made a movie of me building these Legos and I want to share it with you. And you're like, that's a great, I think that's a great thing.

And maybe I shouldn't be such a dick.

Claire: We literally had that discussion at our house this week because my son has been making videos with his friends and they're cute and they're good. Like he's, in my opinion, I know I'm biased. He's a perfect, most beautiful, smartest child who ever lived and no one else is cut.

No, but he is making these cool videos and he wants a YouTube channel to put them on and I don't like that idea. Because I don't want him to think about, I don't want him to be tracking how many people have seen them, likes, replies, and so I was saying maybe it can be on Vimeo or maybe my husband can make a website to put them on, and of course my son is devastated that, you know, he is so deprived that he won't have his own YouTube channel, but that's like the nitty gritty of where things go.

I want to [00:42:00] encourage your creativity, but like, how can we do that in a way where you're not going to fall into a wormhole, and you're going to start being served up, you know, red pilling channels that are going to convince you that, you know, your mom should stay home and cook for you.

And that, Joe Rogan is who you should be listening to and not your nice male teacher at school. So, yeah, all these things that are the same problems our parents dealt with, but really not at all.

Quinn: But it's a little, right? No, a hundred percent, but it's a little you know, my children, we were driving somewhere and you know, the usual, my wife tends to like semi joke about the boys, like just the unfounded white guy confidence that they have. And she's like this is what I'm, I have Zoom calls with this all fucking day.

And she's like it’s somehow it's just born into them. And they were remarking something about driving. And I said, guys, is there a chance? Like I fuck this up. I'm not paying attention. You ask for some fucking song or you dipshits can't keep your hands off each other in the back or whatever. But I also have no [00:43:00] control over everybody else we're driving around.

And we are exposed to a bunch of semi qualified people going 80 something miles an hour, who are not paying any fucking attention to what they're doing, much less us. I was like, that is what is actually so hard about this, and it feels the same way about YouTube, because they're like, it's just a YouTube channel, and you go, it's not.

Claire: Yeah.

Yeah. It's grabbing your brain and it wants it. And you know, it may seem fun for now, but you know, you don't know how your brain works. And it's crazy because I was just talking to a cousin of mine at a Christmas party, and she's 28 and she's talking about dating now. And someone said, I know a single man.

He's 42. Would you date a 42 year old? And I looked at her and I was like, you are a fully formed adult standing in front of me, but your brain just finished growing, like that is wild to me, like how far they have to go. And they don't, I mean, we didn't know that when we were younger, you know, being older is hard, but I also love the slowing down and the thinking and like the, [00:44:00] you know, like maybe I'll wait before I send that email or maybe I'll, let me think about that joke.

Is the edginess of that joke going to pay off, you know, in the way that I think it will? But I, this is, you know, another conversation, but I also wanted to say, the bar is on the ground, but props to you for talking to your kids and driving them to school. I was just telling my kids the other day, and I don't remember the context, but I was telling them about, there's a lot of dads out there who take it as a point of pride to not be involved in their kids' upbringing.

You know, and I mentioned the president, is an example of the dads who they've never changed a diaper and are proud of it and don't know what size clothes their kids wear or who their teacher is or what time school starts or what the doctor's name is and things like that.

And so I was telling them that they have a good dad who actually is involved and that's a lucky thing. And I don't even know if it occurred to them that they might not have two parents who are actually engaged in their lives. So, you know, I appreciate you for thinking about it and wrapping your brain around it and digging into [00:45:00] it.

Quinn: Well, I mean, thank you, but I mean, I fuck up 42 times a day and there's definitely times where everyone in the entire family is like, it would be great if you stepped into the other room, pal. We've got this. It only gets worse if you're here. And I'm like, yeah, no, that's fair. You know, we had. So much trouble making our kids and spent every dollar on IVF and it didn't work, and it didn't work, and it didn't work, and miscarriages.

And then they put the last one in and the doctor, who we owe everything to, was like, good luck with your C grade embryo. Fuckin see you never again. And that is a 12 year old now who's wonderful and a moron and wonderful and then, they were like, well, if you want a second one, you got to start doing that shit again.

And we're like, we barely had the, we got nothing left, happened to make the second one. And then of course the third one was an accident while breastfeeding, which as my wife describes it, buy two, get one free. But [00:46:00] I remember when they were really young and there were just so many diapers and boxes of Amazon wipes. And, we were in Los Angeles, and my best friend died of cancer, and I moved out to be with my long distance girlfriend, who's now my wife and I left a great job at ESPN and all these other things. 2009, the economy totally crashes, there's no jobs, and it took a long time to really get back on my feet in any way.

But I did some screenwriting stuff while I was doing some other advice, and I had a chance, an outside chance of getting hired onto a really popular TV show. And there was a, God, I was probably, how old am I? I don't know, 31. And the first 30 years of me was like, this would be fucking incredible every day. That experience, legendary writer's room, what they put out is amazing, all this. And they're like, yeah, so, you [00:47:00] know, we usually roll in about 10, we finish up about 11pm every night this and that. And I just remember thinking, oh, this is my fucking sliding doors moment, because we just spend every dollar making these kids. And, my wife had all kinds of postpartum shit and was working full time. I mean, she was running a TV show when the first one was born. She went back to work after a week. I didn't do it. And I was like, well, just set the old career back ten fucking years. But I also was like, I have always wanted to be a dad and wanted to be there at dinner.

And then there's plenty of nights where I'm like, maybe I don't want to be at this dinner right now. Maybe no one else wants me to be at this dinner right now.

Claire: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no one's glad mad dad is there to yell at everyone?

Quinn: Right. So weird. It's so weird that now I literally have a notification on my phone that tells me to take my gummy before I go home so that I'm not mad dad at dinner and they're all like, this is great. But I do try to cherish that because as you know, it fucking flies by [00:48:00] and all of a sudden they, all they want to do is ask you questions and talk and then all of a sudden every response is like, uh huh. And you go, wait, did I just lose it? Is it gone?

Claire: That's so funny. My husband just took my 12 year old on the trip. Cause he was like, who knows how long he'll want to talk to me for, you know? Cause he thinks, you know, the sands are going away. I remember, I think when my first was a baby, a boss of mine told me that, he was like, there's nothing that makes you feel more secure and gives you peace of mind than going to bed at night and locking the door and knowing everyone's in their bed and under the same roof and you're not wondering where anyone is. And I don't know why that's stuck in my head because I don't think I even had a second one at that point, but knowing it'll go away doesn't make it probably easier when it does happen.

But, you know, did you ever see the movie Tully?

Quinn: No. I know the story, but I didn't see it.

Claire: Okay. It wrecked me when I saw it. I watched it on Mother's Day and I was tipsy and stoned when I saw it. Just you know, all the things. But one of the takeaways is that the kids need, parenting is [00:49:00] a grind and it's tedious. And it's all this stuff that goes unappreciated and it's really boring to us.

But ultimately, that's what kids thrive on. And that's what they need is that reliability and for you to be there, you know. And I think a lot about, you know, you mentioned that your ambition has cratered and that you turned down this job, but I think a lot about what do we owe our pre kid selves?

Like why do we think of that as like the true version of ourselves that we like owe, to keep certain promises to because that we are still that same person, that person didn't die but why do we feel like that's the most, I don't think I should become a vet because I wanted to be one when I was five, you know, but you still think man, I should be writing a book.

I should be, I don't know what, like striving more, trying to make more money, but also I just really want to read a book and go to bed.

Quinn: My therapist describes that as “shoulding” all over myself. So, yeah, I mean, I'm proud of what I do now. And so I think I have lost some of the, I mean, there's still part of me that's like, how am I not a fucking baseball player? What happened? But at the same [00:50:00] time, I do feel, and maybe some of it is, you know, like you said, just getting older or more comfortable or seeing the appeal of getting older in a lot of ways, like you said, the slowing down, the having learned lessons, and then applying them, which is a fuckin new experience.

I do feel more comfortable with myself than I have been, and I think there’s so much change for such a period. Like you said, your brain doesn’t stop developing until you’re like 30, and then you have a bunch of kids, and you get married, and you move, and this and that, and jobs and life. And as much as parenting changes like every 6 months, I do feel like I'm kind of, I don't want to say confident by any stretch, but like in a I think I can do this phase for now.

Which is probably the longest it's been for awhile.

Claire: You shouldn't have said that.

Quinn: That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it.

Claire: No, I know the same thing. I've been like, I was like, it's been a [00:51:00] minute since I've been like, felt bereft and I don't know what to do and I don't have the tools and, you know, and everyone's sad or mad, but yeah, which means like it's incoming, yeah, the second this call is over, but, yeah, I think it is both great and also the worst that we can talk to so many people and see what everyone is doing.

And I think both of us, maybe the goal of this talk is you know, we're all on social media, it's Christmas time as we talk, everyone's got pictures of their daughters in beautiful velvet dresses and their sons with their hair combed and they're standing in front of the Christmas tree.

And you know, that doesn't reveal a fraction of what we go through. And you know, and I think it's important to just be able to hold, of course, we want to be proud of our kids and show our, the fruits of our labor literally and figuratively, but also you can't do that without also talking about the literal shit under your fingernails that comes along with that.

And it's good to remember that we're all faking it. We all have this [00:52:00] facade, you know, but to some extent, but at the same time, we all are washing skid mark underpants and you know, yeah, the things that I have been surprised that I've had to tell my kids to do, scrub your ass.

You do need to wash under your armpits. No, do not put a pepper in your nose. I can't believe I had to tell you that, things like that.

Quinn: Right because on the one hand like you said both things are always true which is like, you're really smart kids and like you have a little street smarts, too, but we figured out that it's important to wash your hands a hundred years ago. Why would you like fundamentally disagree with it, basically? Like, why do you have this philosophical bent against it?

Where they literally look at you aghast every time. It's fucking Memento, where they go like every time. And I'm like, yeah, every fucking time you have to do it. And they're like, that seems completely, you're a fucking asshole.

Claire: I mean, during COVID, my husband and he's doing, but he's better now, [00:53:00] a little bit better. But he's had anxiety is his, you know, I'm depression, he's anxiety

Quinn: Very similar. Reverse. But yes.

Claire: Our younger one because he's a second born with ADHD, he decided that he would rebel because the one thing you had to do during COVID was wash your hands and he wouldn't do it.

And the screaming, knock down, drag out, this is the one thing you're supposed to do, wash your hands, fights. And it's funny now because we can joke about it, but like literally just these little arguments that will just fucking destroy you in the moment cause it does feel like life or death at the moment.

Quinn: Yeah, I mean, I feel like everything is true at once.

It's insanely hard. It's incredibly redeeming. It's the greatest thing. It's fucking brutal. And then you go to bed and you start scrolling through the fucking pictures and you're like, what kind of sick fuck, what is my problem?

Claire: I know. Oh God. I mean, I just was looking at the Christmas tree because there's a, there's an ornament of my nine year old, like his little cute face in preschool. And I'm like, that was it. [00:54:00] This is like the perfect version of him. And I think that was like the teacher who would call us all the time about, you know, how he was not being good, you know, and he's at school and thank God he's at school right now.

Cause I would not want to be home with him. Because I gotta record a podcast and talk to another grown up, but I've got this little face, you know, and it's almost like you, it is wild. It is completely wild. Cause you're like, I don't feel that different. And yet this was a completely different kid at that time.

It is really, I always think of it. And if you ever saw Conan O'Brien, when he had his TV show, would do these bits where he had a super, super slow mo camera and he would show things like I remember, I think they like hit a piece of jello with a tennis racket and you watched it in slow motion, come through the strings of the racket.

And I always think that's what parenthood does to your brain, is that it gets hit with a tennis racket and it turns into all these pieces and then eventually coagulates on the other side. And that's amazing that happened and you're stronger for it, but it's a very unpleasant, [00:55:00] difficult process to go through at the same time.

And you lose some bits of the jello on the way out as well.

Quinn: Oh, no doubt. I mean, there's a lot of jello that is missing. And, you know, we like to say to them, and we try to model this for them, and I often do a poor job, which is you get to be tired or hungry or whatever, but you don't get to be a dick, you know, once you get old enough and you have sleepovers at grandma's or friends or whatever, you guys get to stay up.

That's great for you. I did the same thing. You do not get to come home and be a dick to your siblings. Or else we're just not gonna do it. And that's totally your choice. I also empathize that it's a hard lesson to learn, cause you, cause I didn't learn it until six months ago. You know, so I'm trying to help you do it sooner for both of our benefits.

But, you know, it's hard. You black hole a lot. You know, I remember when our second kid, our daughter, popped out after a brutal pregnancy for my wife. And I mean, my daughter was like still slimy. It was [00:56:00] seconds, not even two digits of seconds. And she looked at me and she goes, I can see why people have a third.

And I was like, are you fucking kidding me right now? Did the hormones work that fast? Are you like, cause I remember the whole fucking thing. And by the way, I wanted 10 kids, but I was still just like, holy shit.

Claire: I said the same thing and I would say, I said giving birth a second time is like pulling out of a driveway that's been shoveled already, you know, cause the first time that the driveway has not been shoveled and you're slipping and sliding and you're stuck. But yeah, that's why I was glad we had the vasectomy schedule because I was like, this will prevent me from having a third kid.

And I'm glad, two was good for me. Two boys was enough. I would, people would always be like, aren't you going to have a girl, go for the girl. Even a girl is still another kid, even if she's a girl, even if she's the world's best girl, she's still a child. And so no thank you.

Quinn: And then you get to skin care. Which is literally most of my daughter's Christmas list. And we were like, nope. And then she's going to hate us.

Claire: I'm [00:57:00] already mad, I put my husband in charge of Christmas shopping because we had a big blowout many years ago over a disagreement about how many presents they should get and the end result was that I was like you own Christmas then, you're in charge of all the gifts. I won't criticize, I'll give you ideas if you want, but I won't say anything, but so he got my son a water bottle.

You may be surprised to know that we already have several water bottles in our house. So I don't know why we got another water bottle.

Quinn: Oh my God. The fucking water bottles. Yeah, continue.

Claire: No, that's it.

Quinn: That's it.

Every parent is just like, are you fucking, every parent who's driving home right now to their kids that they were excited to see about an hour ago and they're going to get home and be like, fuck me, right now is like reaching behind them in their car or whatever, and there's seven fucking water bottles.

Meanwhile, their kids are like, I can't find my water bottle. Really?

[00:58:00]